Episode 41

hey everybody and welcome to another
amazing episode of finding peaks chris
burns president and founder here i got
uh the chief clinical officer jason
friesma and our longest standing
employee i want to make that very clear
um so really grateful for your time with
pete’s jay and then we have our an
admissions specialist angela lopez to my
right thank you for coming back on today
yeah really grateful to have you we have
an exceptional show today something
that’s near and dear to my heart
angela’s and jason and that is being a
parent in this world and a parent in
recovery
which sometimes can be pretty trying
in a difficult
process to navigate at times and so um i
want to talk a little bit on the front
end about what this episode is and kind
of what it isn’t um this is we’re going
to talk about some things in the
developmental process that have just
come to light in the last handful of
years that we’re really grateful for um
some ideas and some opportunities for us
parents just to get it better
and to be able to show up better in
those really crucial developmental years
so this isn’t an attempt to throw shade
at any past parenting so much of it is
generational and like i said i was just
reading the dad to be book in 2015 and i
was a little bit shaken uh to have read
the whole thing and not find a single
chapter on mental health
um so i’m grateful to be here today with
folks in recovery
um great parents um so let’s let’s get
this thing going let’s do it let’s do it
so i have a few questions um we’ll start
with the first one and i’m going to
direct this at angela but um
you’re a parent in recovery i am all
right and you have a six-year-old
daughter she’s seven seven i always
think she’s ten she acts 20.
yeah but she’s seven yeah what
we were just talking about before the
show how we absolutely love just being
parents in recovery and the joy that we
get from that but what are some of the
more difficult parts about being a
parent in recovery
that’s a great question i think
for me one of the most difficult things
is that
learning how to put myself first
over you know my daughter over anybody
else i think for me as a mom it feels
and any parent can relate but it feels
counterintuitive to want to
take care of yourself first like you
know they give that example about
putting your mask on first before your
child in an airplane and that’s how i
think of my recovery i i need to put
myself first and if i’m okay she’s okay
but it feels very
awkward um but i know that it’s
important and i watch the effects in my
daughter and her learning how to take
care of herself
um but i think yeah that would probably
be the hardest part that’s awesome i i
love that and you actually shared a
story
before the show would you be willing to
share that yeah so
the other day
i’ll probably cry talking about it but
um the other day my daughter
you know i lost my cool on her and i
yelled at her and that happens sometimes
when you’re a parent and
um you know so i was doing some repair
work i was like athena you know that i
love you more than anybody else in this
world
and she’s like well what about your mom
what about your sister and i was just
like well this isn’t a competition but
you know i love you more than anybody
else in this world
and she’s like well mom what about
yourself you have to love yourself first
and care about yourself first if you’re
going to take care of me
and those are not words that i had ever
sat down and said athena you need to
love yourself first before you love
anybody else i’d never said that to her
but you know through my recovery in the
last you know her entire life really
because i had her in sobriety she’s seen
that she’s seen that i have to put you
know my recovery first i have to take
care of myself first and um it’s wild to
watch it um you know sink in for her
without me ever having to even say it
yeah yeah i love that and that brings up
just a tremendous point that
um i would remember sitting with my
therapist and i went in to paulie and
i’m like paulie i i can’t get this four
or five-year-old like how do i teach him
gratitude yeah
she’s like chris gratitude you show them
and i’m like wow
and all of this information kept
flooding in i said i’ve been i’ve been
celebrating these big things and not
really looking for the simple things in
order to celebrate to create this
gratitude
so it’s so much more about what we show
them
um and maybe j through your clinical
lens and obviously being one of the
greatest fathers that i know and having
taught me a tremendous amount about
showing up as a parent
um and having older kids than than we
have what was that process i am older
a little bit much
yeah so yeah what is that process now
that you’re through some of those more
developmental years and
certainly you’re still in some of them
but what was that process like for you
i was reflecting on it as you guys both
kind of talked about being
earlier in your parent process um
like you know my kids are now adults um
that’s crazy and it is crazy i’ll be
honest with you it goes by in a second
um
like i just i feel like
i was so i was nervous about having like
teenagers and how
how would we provide discipline and
structure for them as they got older and
really
um
what i found is that all the
the seeds of relationship that my wife
trish and i
just sewed into our kids like when they
were teenagers like we really
we didn’t have big blowups or big like
how do we handle this or whatever like
we were just so invested in the
relationship it certainly doesn’t mean
we didn’t have hard times we had hard
talks and rough evenings and
you know challenges on a variety of
things but it was all
relational
and when you
when you begin to view
your kids as people really and treating
them as people like i i feel like
i don’t know
where maybe along the way that got
missed
like
generations past it feels like but they
but they’re people like
they aren’t little adults they are kids
but they are people too that that the
relationship and showing them
uh gratitude and showing them
how to love themselves and trying to
love yourself
while probably battling i’m a bad parent
all the time in the back of my head i
know i i constantly battled that as the
kids were getting older but really
learning how to lean into that
um
and be relational means that you know
when my daughter’s off at college like
she’s calling to ask you know real
questions and and wrestle with these
things in a really genuine way not
because she’s forced or or anything or
or needs something for me other than
like just connection it’s it’s strange
i’ll be honest with you
yeah and i’m really grateful yeah that’s
really cool i really appreciate you
sharing that and
so much of this you know especially with
older kids it’s informed by something
yeah you know and generally in my
experience especially with children is
it’s informed kind of at the ground
level and where these things are rooted
through these early developmental
processes and i was reading a study well
about a year ago and it said you know
from three to five we’re finding for
emotional development that kids outside
of you know primal needs really need to
be shown inherent value
right and
i am a consequence of lack thereof and i
don’t say that just in my addicted
family system i am seeing kids come from
what i would consider really good
families that are just missing some of
these more connective tissue moments to
just do something simple as making sure
that athena is inherently valued
it’s not you don’t have to work for it
you just have it a part of you
and i wonder too at the same time if a
kid is really rooted in that inherent
value
then we don’t have these really intense
spikes
in some of those other developmental
years these huge cataclysmic moments
because they’re rooted in something good
something safe and something sustainable
i mean i i totally agree chris like
because how many how many people you
know i certainly watch it all the time
at peaks and i’d probably feel it myself
for a lot of times too like when
something goes wrong
the first place we go is like i’m wrong
i’m the problem i am
a piece of garbage or whatever it is
that we may tell ourselves
and um
and really when when you’re planting
these seeds sometimes that you don’t
have but you can plant them in your own
kids or at least have a way to talk them
through that like i think it can be so
powerful
um when they don’t take all that stuff
personally like they demonstrate that
resilience that
you know maybe it took some of us
decades longer to sort out
yeah yeah yeah it’s really cool and then
we wonder sometimes and i wondered you
know i sat back in kind of a lower
income situation and i saw kids go to
boarding schools and off to jail and
they’d come back and do more of the same
and it was just this repeat rinse wash
and repeat and often times the parents
in my social circle would look at the
kid like what the are you doing yeah you
know and the kids like i don’t know um i
just can’t stop doing it
but when that inherent value is missing
at that foundational level
kids are these things are really smart
and so they go out and they try and find
it
and that’s what we have i think and a
lot of times in our prison systems with
recidivism rates
certainly a chronic relapse comes up is
with kind of some under-resourced
providers really actually not treating
the root cause
and we’re not dismissing some of that
intensity and so it it’s everlasting
and that can be really tough
developmentally but you mentioned
something earlier that was really really
cool um and it’s the developmental stage
from seven to eleven and we’re talking
about repair yeah how do you repair as a
parent today i think it takes having to
be vulnerable with her
i want to show her what not being
perfect looks like and i think it goes
right along with what you’re saying that
even when she messes up that she still
is safe here and she can still talk to
me about it but that comes with leading
it so you know if i mess up i have to i
sit down with her and i remind her that
that had nothing to do with her because
i think you know i was talking to
somebody earlier about how kids are just
kind of inherently selfish and they are
going to take things personally and
they’re going to see their fault in it
or what what they do
that could have changed it and reminding
her that this is not about you that this
is about me and ultimately i’m the adult
in the situation and you know of course
it’s still not okay that you did x y and
z
and this is what i should have done
different and i think that repairing
with her has been
the pivotal part in
our relationship really because she
knows that she can come to me no matter
what
yeah
and that is so crucial and
really a new generation of ways to look
at things because
jason kind of mentioned it but we’re
coming off the backs of a generation not
too long ago where kids are supposed to
be seen and not heard and then we have
our chief clinical officer saying over
here we got to actually treat them like
people yeah
and this is these this new way to really
look at things and so sometimes for some
family systems that can be a tough rub
but it really is this idea that like
we’re not perfect and we need to show
our kids that there’s nothing like
perfection in this world that is
actually setting them up for failure
yeah right so one of those premeditated
resentments so how have you seen jason
um or what message would you give
to parents out there that are struggling
both with addicted
loved ones but maybe even kids in
recovery you know how do we show up
there um
maybe you can touch on that a little bit
man that’s a really broad question um
i think
you know showing up like showing up for
kids in recovery like kids who are in
recovery themselves i think
accessing
that humanity being able to separate out
the addiction as painful as it may have
been and as much wreckage as there may
be behind that addiction
um
somewhere in there there’s i i almost
everybody
has some inherent value right like i
mean that’s what developmentally we’re
saying at three well it’s still true at
mistakes or cause a lot more damage but
somewhere in there there’s absolutely
inherent value in that person and um
if you can kind of mine for that or
remember that piece i think it can be so
helpful
yeah um and i can’t i mean i can’t tell
you i’ve there’s been a variety of times
where where i’ve been sitting with a
client i can just see them
just disappearing to their shame and
i’ll just be like hey you’re you are a
good man i’ll just leave it there and
like you’d be
shocked at how quickly people just begin
to cry because like that’s not what they
say to themselves yeah
i think that was the biggest difference
for
with my mom and i
jason has seen my mom and i yes and i
went to 10 treatment centers by the time
i got sober and i did horrendous things
to myself to other people
and she always came to see me she never
was like you know i’m done with you like
get help by yourself kind of thing of
course she had to set some appropriate
boundaries but she was always just happy
to see me and she always reminded me
that like
i was separate from my addiction and the
world i was living in was not my normal
you know that this is not the life that
i needed to live because of how i was
what i was worth um that this was just
kind of part of my story but not who i
was and i think
that you’re so right was so impactful
for me even in the moment if i can see
it but especially now and then leading
the way with how i want to parent my
daughter
yeah yeah yeah that’s really cool i
always forget you guys have that
yeah there’s some history yeah
wow yeah
you know and i i want to share just a
really cool story and and for parents
out there who have maybe a four or five
or six year old or seven year old try it
real time i was i was at the park a
handful of months ago and i was with my
oldest son and my youngest son and
something about i consider myself to be
one of the best dads on planet earth and
i strive towards that and i work towards
that
and it’s not just given and so one of my
rules is is it guys if we’re going to go
bike riding we’re going to the park the
rule is is when i say it’s time to go we
got to go
no questions asked because we do
something fun every night
and six months ago or whatever it was
maybe even a year ago i go okay let’s go
and he says i don’t want to go
and i do this
and i don’t say a word i just look at
him
that look came from somewhere yeah um
didn’t come from his dad
and right away
rory starts crying i didn’t say a word
and he goes daddy like he saw a ghost
and i was like holy [ __ ] you’re just
scared
excuse my french you just scared this
kid and very quickly i’m like repair
that was not my intention my intention
is to get him to go so he can go home
yeah and so i get down to his level and
i go buddy daddy can tell that he just
scared you
that is not my intention my intention is
to say that it’s time to go but i want
you to know man fear is not something i
want to be a part of this process i love
you so much
and i’ve seen it real time six-year-old
he goes like this
julie all right dad because i thought
you were getting funny there for a
second
you know he’s right back to the races he
just needs to know that he doesn’t have
to go home when he sits by himself at
night and tell himself child like
stories because dad didn’t tell him the
reality of the situation
and that’s a lot of what i found myself
doing as a kid is is being in a room by
myself telling myself
what else would i tell myself other than
child-like stories yeah on the back end
of a consequence and so much of it’s
generational with back in the day you
know we do time outs and we put kids in
their rooms and we disconnect them from
the source of information and love that
they really need to see yeah and i think
like with what you’re saying
it comes with the level of working on
ourselves to know you know that we’re
able to be vulnerable with somebody
who’s learning about emotions and that
kind of thing because that does take a
level of humility to get down on a
child’s level and saying like that i
didn’t mean to scare you you know what i
mean so i think that that’s important
too is like the work we have to do
individually in order not to continue
the pattern that’s huge yeah and it’s
really confirming a reality too right
because like if you don’t repair
like you said the kids kids blame
themselves because they think the world
revolves around them that’s just
developmentally how they are yeah and so
if you’re in if you’re responding anger
then i evoke anger it’s what my problem
is
like
i can’t please my dad or whatever it is
that would start to sink in there
and really when you just get down you
point out the obvious like hey i kind of
lost
you know you know he knew you lost it
right he knew you got mad you knew you
got mad all you had to do was
acknowledge that
yeah that was
oops
yeah my bad oops yeah
yeah
remembering too that’s very good
brilliant points and just remembering
that a lot of that intensity is formed
informed by something yeah and i heard a
brilliant thing or back in my early
career from p a melody over at the
meadows
it say it changed the game for me the
way that i look at intensity and anger
and she said if you ever get over above
a five out of ten it’s because of the
past
and so very clearly in our recovery and
his parents i can go i miss that i think
that has nothing to do with where we’re
at today
and being able to get that right yeah
and i think
what i struggled with early on as a
parent and repairing was that i’m
actually not going to get my point
across when i admit that i’m wrong
um and it’s actually you can do both of
them at the same time and actually doing
both really well
as a result but i always felt like hey
i’m going to say sorry but you need to
say sorry
and it’s just kind of the maturation
process is apparent and watching that
process unfolding really reaping the
benefits of some good solid repair then
i can see rorick he’ll get intense with
his brother i’ll be like okay and the
intensity and be like i actually didn’t
mean to get intense with you garrick you
just weren’t listening and so when you
don’t listen i i think you’re trying to
put me off and he’s like no i love you
rorick you know
he’s like okay good because i know it
now the story is clear yeah you know
before we end i wanted to get into one
last question
um and we’ll start with angela
what is the greatest the absolute
greatest moment if you can think of one
um
being a parent in recovery being a
mother being a great mother
um for me i’m not sure i can think of
one moment i think it’s every day that i
get to show up for her and hearing
things come out of her mouth like that
that you know our car got broken into a
couple years ago and
and my daughter was like you know what
mom somebody probably hurt them so they
think it’s okay to hurt people
and i’m like okay she was four
and stuff like that where i’m just like
holy cow this is working whatever i’m
doing is working you know and so now
it’s been seven years later and i’ve
seen that girl every day unless i was
like out of town for a couple days or
something but that i’m consistent for
her and consistency is not something
that i could be even for myself so
being that for her um
i think that’s just the greatest gift
really that’s awesome yeah how about for
you jay
yeah so many i
there are and some of them are so
precious i mean i’m not going to talk
about them on here but like i do think
um
i think
you know
honestly now that my kids are
out of the house and it’s uh trish and i
like i think
actually just the small things you know
what i mean it isn’t it isn’t the big
trips though those were fun and have
been fun and i hope i can do more with
my kids but like
it’s you know a game of cards around the
table or just like
you know sitting at the fire or reading
harry potter book or you know like it’s
it’s all the little stuff yeah um it has
nothing to do with
a big moment i think it’s the it’s the
long story it’s the cumulative moments
would be what i would say yeah how about
you chris i can definitely relate to
that okay um
you know as i asked you guys that
question i hadn’t thought about it
before the show and um
one of the things that’s been really
near and dear to my heart over the last
couple of years is spreading positivity
love compassion and joy to the world
and
i do it all the time i run down the road
i do peace signs i say happy tuesday our
guy yeah and maybe one of the one of the
cooler moments was
about six months ago i’m riding bikes
with the boys
and they get out in front of me i jog
behind them and they they can get way
out in front of me
and i look and my two sons are at the
crosswalk about 400 meters ahead of me
in every car that goes by they’re going
happy tuesday
to see that to see them out in the
community and in the world treating
people well yeah um is the single most
greatest gift as a father yeah for me so
i love that yeah
all right uh that was a phenomenal show
thank you both for coming on it’s always
just an absolute pleasure
to connect with you both and to share
both personally and professionally um
thank you for being a part of the great
parent club and showing me
how to do this thing 24 hours at a time
so appreciate you all very much
appreciate that for the viewers out
there
you’re grateful recovering president and
founder getting ready to sign off please
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[Music]